tempo trascrizione
00:06:00 talk radio TNT IC Benvenuti allo show di Dirk Pohlman su
00:12:00 TNT radio e la mia ospite di oggi è Cynthia Chung, ho pronunciato correttamente Cynthia?
00:19:00 Ok, ci siamo già incontrati diverse volte in giro per il mondo con suo marito
00:25:00 Matthew e uno degli argomenti che entrambi condividiamo è il gladio.
00:32:00 gladio, quindi lei ha scritto una serie di cinque parti, credo fossero quattro, non ne sono sicuro.
00:39:00 sulla cultura strategica, quindi cosa ne pensi?
00:45:00 è il tuo punto di vista su gladio, io ci sono arrivato e ti spiegherò come ci sono arrivato, ma come lo spiegheresti a un ragazzo di 16 anni?
00:51:00 tuo nipote di 16 anni, durante una riunione di famiglia.
00:57:00 Ehm, sì, anche per me, in realtà, la prima volta che ho sentito parlare di
01:02:00 gladio è stata la prima volta che ho sentito parlare diffusamente di Gladio, quando lei ha tenuto una conferenza per la
01:07:00 Fondazione Marea Crescente e l’avevo già sentita, ma non mi era mai entrata in testa
01:13:00 la rilevanza e l’ampiezza della cosa e poi
01:18:00 Quando è iniziata la guerra in Ucraina, nel 2022, ho iniziato questa serie di cinque puntate
01:25:00 per la cultura strategica che ha finito per diventare un libro.
01:30:00 sole nero non tramonta mai um e mi sono imbattuto di nuovo in Gladio in
01:37:00 Questa ricerca per cercare di dare un senso a come siamo finiti nella situazione che abbiamo trovato.
01:43:00 ci siamo trovati con gli Stati Uniti e non più con una guerra per procura con la Russia, ma con una guerra diretta.
01:50:00 con la Russia in Ucraina e quindi Gladio era in realtà una
01:57:00 um centrale per capire cosa sia la NATO, quale sia il ruolo che la NATO ha effettivamente
02:03:00 ha svolto fin dalle sue origini e direi che per un sedicenne
02:09:00 è che, insomma, è complicato perché bisogna anche
02:14:00 bisogna capire chi erano le vere parti in causa nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale e la storia che abbiamo raccontato.
02:20:00 storia che ci viene raccontata, cioè che ci sono i buoni, i chiari buoni e i chiari cattivi, non è…
02:27:00 sfortunatamente non è la realtà di quella guerra e che c’erano fondamentalmente due
02:34:00 ideologie per le quali si combatteva quella guerra, una era che le persone
02:42:00 erano viste come qualcosa da governare, che non c’era una vera e propria idea di democrazia.
02:48:00 idea di democrazia, anche se spesso si dipinge come se fosse dalla parte della democrazia.
02:54:00 um dove in definitiva si trattava di una prospettiva fascista che veniva condivisa da molti
03:02:00 um influenti ambienti degli Stati Uniti, della Gran Bretagna, della Francia, ecc.
03:09:00 um e quando la guerra finì e i cosiddetti cattivi, come i
03:15:00 nazisti e i fascisti italiani furono sconfitti, la realtà della situazione fu che
03:22:00 um questi cattivi non erano mai stati veramente, non era previsto che andasse così e se si guarda alla
03:28:00 come si sono sviluppate le relazioni prima che diventassero chiaramente dei cattivi
03:34:00 perché per molto tempo, fino a un certo punto, il fascismo non è stato considerato una parola cattiva.
03:42:00 erano in realtà i comunisti e soprattutto gli stalinisti
03:48:00 ad essere considerati cattivi e poi a pari merito con Hitler.
03:53:00 con Hitler, così quando la Seconda guerra mondiale fu cosiddetta finita
04:00:00 questi schieramenti di nuovo con un’ideologia fascista iniziarono a lavorare di nuovo con le forze alleate.
04:07:00 con le Forze Alleate praticamente da subito, anche sovrapponendosi alla guerra, come abbiamo visto nel caso della Grecia, dove la
04:14:00 La Gran Bretagna intervenne in Grecia mentre era in corso la Seconda Guerra Mondiale a sostegno dei nazisti.
04:21:00 i nazisti contro la resistenza comunista… Cose del genere hanno iniziato a svilupparsi…
04:29:00 hanno iniziato a svilupparsi dopo la seconda guerra mondiale, ovvero gli eserciti di supporto che
04:34:00 probabilmente all’inizio avevano un buon scopo, cioè erano stati creati nel caso in cui la
04:40:00 la Germania vincesse, avremmo avuto tutti questi nuclei di resistenza in tutta Europa.
04:47:00 Europa, in seguito furono istituiti nel caso di un’invasione sovietica dell’Europa dopo la fine del conflitto.
04:54:00 Europa dopo la sconfitta dei nazisti, che era una preoccupazione costante soprattutto dei Churchill.
05:00:00 e questo non è mai accaduto, ed è qui che la questione diventa molto controversa.
05:07:00 dove questi eserciti di retroguardia vennero sempre più utilizzati per plasmare le politiche democratiche.
05:13:00 le politiche democratiche e i leader democratici, per cui venivano usati
05:20:00 per orchestrare il terrorismo in tutta Europa.
05:27:00 incolpati di attività in gran parte comuniste e che si sovrapponevano ad alcune
05:33:00 delle attività comuniste, anche se dobbiamo ricordare che durante la Seconda Guerra Mondiale furono proprio i comunisti, anche
05:39:00 all’interno dell’Italia, della Grecia e di molti altri Paesi a rappresentare la vera resistenza contro i nazisti.
05:45:00 i nazisti e che la preoccupazione era che dopo la Seconda Guerra Mondiale questi sarebbero stati chiaramente
05:51:00 sarebbero stati i gruppi che sarebbero stati eletti per formare i governi di questi Paesi e questa è una delle
05:58:00 delle prime cose ben documentate in cui l’America è intervenuta sono state le elezioni italiane.
06:03:00 elezioni italiane, che sarebbero state le prime elezioni in Europa dopo la Seconda Guerra Mondiale, proprio per intervenire
06:11:00 per minare il sostegno dei comunisti in Italia, così questi eserciti di retroguardia
06:17:00 venivano sempre più utilizzati come un’arma contro i popoli europei al fine di
06:24:00 dare la colpa ai comunisti e ottenere il sostegno per una politica di estrema destra.
06:30:00 politica di estrema destra che, in ultima analisi, tendeva allo stesso tipo di politica fascista
06:35:00 fascisti che sono stati sconfitti durante la Seconda Guerra Mondiale e questo è l’obiettivo del
…
tempo transcript
00:06:00 talk radio TNT IC welcome to the Dirk Pohlman show on
00:12:00 TNT radio and my guest today is Cynthia Chung did I pronounce that correct Cynthia yes
00:19:00 okay um we have met several times now all around the globe with your husband
00:25:00 Matthew also and one of the topics that we both share and interest in is really
00:32:00 gladio so you have written a five part series I think was it four part I’m not
00:39:00 sure um on strategic culture about it so what
00:45:00 is your take on gladio I came to it I will explain how I came to it but how would you explain it to a 16 year old
00:51:00 your 16 year old nephew on a family meeting
00:57:00 um yeah well for for me as well actually the first time I was hearing about
01:02:00 gladio spoken extensively was when you uh gave us a lecture to the the rising
01:07:00 tide foundation and um I had heard it before but it it had never quite sunk in
01:13:00 us to the the relevance and the magnitude of it and then
01:18:00 um when the Ukraine war had started uh in 2022 I I began this five-part
01:25:00 series for strategic culture which ended up becoming um a book uh the empire in which the
01:30:00 black Sun never set um and I uh came across gladio again in
01:37:00 um This research to try to make sense of how we ended up in in the situation that
01:43:00 we we found ourselves with a you know the US pretty much and not even now a proxy war with Russia but a direct war
01:50:00 with Russia in in Ukraine um and so gladio was actually a
01:57:00 um Central to understanding what NATO actually what role NATO has actually
02:03:00 played since um it’s it’s very origin and I would say to I guess a 16 year old
02:09:00 is that well I mean it’s complicated because you also
02:14:00 have to understand what who were the the true sides in World War II and uh the
02:20:00 story that we are told that you know we have the good guys the clear good guys and we have the clear bad guys is uh is
02:27:00 not um unfortunately the reality of of that war and that there was basically two
02:34:00 ideologies that that war was being fought over one was that uh people uh
02:42:00 were were seen as something to be ruled over uh that you there wasn’t a true
02:48:00 idea of democracy although it often portrays itself as being on the side of democracy
02:54:00 um where it was ultimately a fascist Outlook that was being shared by many
03:02:00 um influential quarters within the United States within Britain uh within France and and so forth
03:09:00 um and when that when the war was over and the so-called bad guys you know the
03:15:00 Nazi and the the Italian fascists were defeated the reality of the situation was that
03:22:00 um these bad guys were never really it wasn’t supposed to go down that way and if you look at
03:28:00 how relationships were being developed before they became the clear bad guys
03:34:00 because for the longest time you know fascism wasn’t actually considered a bad word up until a certain point
03:42:00 um it was really the Communists and especially you know the the stalinists
03:48:00 who were considered um bad and uh later on on equal footing
03:53:00 with with Hitler um so when World War II was a so-called over
04:00:00 these uh alignments again with a fascist ideology started to again work with the
04:07:00 Allied Forces pretty much right away even overlapping with the war as we saw the case with Greece where you had
04:14:00 Britain intervening in Greece while World War II was ongoing in support of
04:21:00 the Nazis against the Communist resistance um you had uh things like this that
04:29:00 started to develop after World War II which were the stay behind armies which
04:34:00 arguably had a good purpose initially which was it they were set up in case
04:40:00 Germany was to win that we would have all of these um resistance cores set up throughout
04:47:00 Europe later on they uh they were set up in case there was a Soviet invasion of
04:54:00 Europe after the the Nazis were defeated which was an ongoing concern of especially Churchills
05:00:00 and that never happened and this is where it gets uh very controversial
05:07:00 where these stay behind armies were increasingly used to shape
05:13:00 um Democratic policies Democratic leaders so they they’re they were used
05:20:00 to basically orchestrate terrorism throughout Europe they were they were
05:27:00 blamed on a largely communist activities and and they were overlapping with some
05:33:00 of the Communist activities although we have to keep in mind during World War II it was really the Communists including
05:39:00 within Italy Greece many other countries that were the real resistance against
05:45:00 the Nazis and that the concern was that after uh World War II these were clearly
05:51:00 going to be the groups who were going to be elected as to form the governments of these countries and that’s the one of
05:58:00 the the well-documented the first things that America intervened on was the
06:03:00 Italian elections it was going to be the first elections to occur in Europe after World War II specifically to intervene
06:11:00 to undermine uh the Communist support in in Italy so these stay behind armies
06:17:00 were increasingly used as a form of weapon against the European people in order to
06:24:00 to blame it on the Communist uh gain support for a more far-right kind of
06:30:00 policy which is uh ultimately you know leaning towards the same kind of fascist
06:35:00 policies that were so-called defeated during World War II and uh this the the
06:41:00 people were constantly lied to as to what was truly behind uh all these uh
06:47:00 terrorist attacks Italy is the the most I guess you could say a pronounced example of this with two decades of the
06:55:00 the years of lead uh which uh was just an ongoing attack on the uh Italian
07:01:00 people the the assassination of Aldo Moro you know uh Danielle againza’s work
07:07:00 is a very um instrumental in my understanding of this he he did excellent research and
07:14:00 made a very good uh point that when the Senate the Italian Senate wanted to
07:19:00 invest open up the investigation again with Aldo Morris assassination after gladio became known to the public with
07:28:00 andreotti’s confession the Senate was asking for the the CIA to
07:34:00 to basically uh cooperate with this uh reopening of the investigation and the
07:40:00 CIA basically refused to the Senate also realized that when they had reopened this investigation into Alda Morrow’s uh
07:48:00 death that the files were gone most of the files went missing so this
07:56:00 has opened up a lot of questions as to what exactly was this whole Cold War
08:02:00 period about and it implicates McCarthyism cointel Pro which is known
08:08:00 today as attacking the Civil Rights movements in the United States you know they were found implicated against
08:16:00 Martin Luther King’s um civil liberty groups and and so forth that this was never really about
08:24:00 um the safety and the security of the western people against uh Soviet communism but was in fact a continuation
08:33:00 of a fascist orientation and these uh these secret armies under gladio again
08:39:00 were also shown um very clearly in Daniella ganser’s work to be directly tied to Nato
08:48:00 yeah um that was a tour de force through the history and uh I can agree on everything
08:55:00 you said there um to me it became obvious that something was strange with the end of
09:03:00 World War II um because uh we have the case of Italy Italy is most interesting in this way
09:10:00 that uh that’s where it started for me um that you could see that the Americans
09:16:00 had the landing and went up slowly very slowly through Italy northwards and were
09:23:00 meeting German troops and there was the strange par The Strange Case of Alan
09:30:00 Dallas doing negotiations with the general SS General wolf wolf uh German name I should say wolf
09:39:00 and this was going on on behind the back of Roosevelt who didn’t know about it
09:45:00 but because Stalin had good spies in the intelligence apparatus of the West he
09:51:00 got to know about it and uh there was it was strange because um they were meant to be allies against
09:59:00 national socialism and fascism uh national socialism in this case Germany
10:04:00 and fascism for Italy but Alan Dallas was already preparing a
10:10:00 new game and that’s created a very interesting uh situation in in Italy as
10:19:00 you described it and then you have of course there’s uh James Jesus Angleton who is became the counter-intelligence
10:27:00 chief of the CIA who was uh in very direct contact uh speaking
10:33:00 Italian with the Italian with it Vatican for example and the situation in Italy and in Italy
10:42:00 it’s also that the American side used the the mafia as a as a as a possibility
10:51:00 to work against the fascist and the German networks they had their own
10:59:00 intelligence and Information Network which was the mafia being reinstated after it went really to the United
11:05:00 States they brought them back and then they were in there and then it becomes all a big mess because the mafia is in
11:11:00 there in Italy and as you described there’s this uh the election uh the the
11:18:00 Moscow at that time Moscow oriented Communists in Italy which later on
11:24:00 became quite independent they were in the aldamoro case they were already very independent they were not on the on the
11:30:00 footage of the of Moscow anymore so that is where the American side spend
11:37:00 a lot of money to prevent in case the population would have voted wrong in
11:42:00 their opinion then democracy would be over and there would be a coup and so you described all that that is very and
11:50:00 I think it’s very weird that on the one hand it’s very well known for example in
11:55:00 the Soviet Union the most uh the most popular TV series ever produced for Soviet TV is 17 moments of spring which
12:04:00 is a artistic Masterpiece and that is the story of the secret negotiations of
12:09:00 Dallas with uh with wolf and the uh the near the Nazis and what the the Soviets
12:18:00 trying to prevent this so that was known in the uh in the uh in the eastern part
12:25:00 but not in the western part and then I noticed I don’t know if you put that in connection I’m not sure but there was uh
12:32:00 this uh operation Unthinkable where Churchill at the end of World War II
12:38:00 told his general staff that there would be a possibility to continue the war but
12:44:00 use the German troops and especially as S waffenus as troops under uh under Allied offices to to
12:54:00 continue the war immediately after Germany had been defeated to go on towards Moscow and that was depicted in
13:02:00 the newspaper that I could get on the internet as a kind of pipe dream and
13:07:00 they were contemplating it but it was never more than thought but a friend of mine a German documentary film had done
13:14:00 a documentary on the SS and he interviewed waffenus as people and quite a lot of them were offering their their
13:22:00 situation when they were in Northern Germany herded by the by the British of
13:27:00 troops and they were told look here are you your Panther tanks and here are the
13:33:00 weapon 43 which was a very modern thing and in a few weeks we’ll go together to fight
13:39:00 the Soviets and they were telling that and for me at that time it was difficult
13:45:00 to believe that it became stronger and stronger and I have um I don’t want to talk on forever but I have to tell you
13:51:00 that for me became extremely muddy that I didn’t understand really looking at it
13:57:00 what was going on because to me it looked like there’s a big toolkit how
14:02:00 Powers what powers can use to stay on top of the situation and it always it
14:09:00 integrates terrorism it integrates uh uh behind the scenes
14:15:00 forces and then I tried to find out who came up with the idea of gladio and then
14:21:00 it becomes murky again you you depicted it right in your in your article that
14:26:00 the soe was kind of an early idea but I also found in the German archive that
14:33:00 otters scotsini was proposing what he called overall armies which is the stay behind concept for for Germany in the
14:41:00 war and so I don’t know how you feel about it but for me it became the more I knew about it the the more difficult it
14:48:00 was to understand who was dealing with whom because of which ideology in the
14:54:00 end it seemed to me like like a very pragmatic way of trying to be stay ahead
14:59:00 on power I don’t you you make this connection with fascism so what is your feeling about that from your research I
15:06:00 I think that uh Churchill and Otto scorzeni had the same vision
15:12:00 um so I don’t I don’t think that there is a there’s a contradiction in that and
15:17:00 you know Churchill wasn’t didn’t have the best track record as a military
15:23:00 strategist uh Otto scorseni definitely proved himself I think to be the true
15:28:00 Mastermind of gladio and that’s the other um thing that is should be very
15:34:00 uncomfortable for people which was at the end of the day it wasn’t even about anglo-american Supremacy
15:41:00 um and that it was going to be okay at the end of the day if they were using these Nazis as long as or these former
15:46:00 Nazis excuse me um if they were going to be in service of anglo-american Supremacy in defense
15:53:00 of Soviet communism which is what the the line was but in reality it wasn’t it wasn’t that case and you
16:01:00 know if you look at what made up NATO um the Central Command of Europe it was
16:07:00 uh for 16 years straight uh led by a former Nazi and
16:14:00 um you know there’s the the keys to what was it in um I think it was in Del Spiegel they wrote that there was a
16:21:00 secret um army of veterans of the vermouth and the Baffin SS established in Germany in
16:27:00 1949 that were made up of of Nazis so
16:32:00 this this and deeply connected into NATO circles uh Nazis were then working
16:37:00 foreign exactly they were a branch of NATO so this this way of interpreting history as
16:45:00 Matt has a brilliant uh title for one of his articles it’s time we think about actually winning World War II we really
16:52:00 have not um World War II was not one but rather what happened was the the kind of
17:00:00 warfare that was being fought was changed strategically
17:05:00 um and we’re seeing it now re-emerge onto the the the surface so that it’s
17:12:00 harder to ignore because for the longest time it it went into more of like you
17:18:00 could say uh underground and also uh was not announcing itself so so directly
17:26:00 um but now we’re seeing it happening all over again and you know NATO has very questionable actions in terms of
17:33:00 provoking this this war in Ukraine um that is is uh is not showing you know
17:39:00 any signs that uh the West is going to to to relent even though for the longest
17:45:00 time it was being reported that you know you did clearly have um uh neo-nazis in Ukraine that were
17:53:00 were um had all types of extremists activity that were very dangerous with the
18:01:00 American government with Victoria Newlin you know the [ __ ] the EU speech even
18:06:00 um showcasing that they were involved in bringing in these neo-nazis into the Ukrainian government when the Ukraine
18:12:00 people themselves were not in support of these people um and I found this out too in doing my
18:19:00 my research there was a massive declassification of um Nazi records in a Japanese fascist
18:26:00 records at the end of the the 90s uh David Talbot’s book um the devil’s chalkboard he used a lot
18:33:00 of that information and um uh we realized with that information
18:40:00 that um what was I I totally lost uh the
18:45:00 track of my mind what was I speaking of just just now before I mentioned the records
18:51:00 um I have so much in my head that it’s hard to to keep it all in and let’s take the chance we’ll have to take a break
18:56:00 anyhow and we get back to uh to the to the talk in in a few minutes
19:02:00 you should hear what Alan Miller is talking about should it be pause now this whole procedure because it is it
19:08:00 was brought in in emergency measures there are side effects um albeit they might be small but that’s
19:15:00 small in terms of numbers but if you’re one of the small people that are statistically over the hundreds of millions of people have taken it there’s
19:21:00 many people that have got side effects here in Britain we’ve had people that many of them haven’t been paid out yet
19:27:00 and many more are being ignored what’s your view on this because such a large fraction of the population have already
19:33:00 had Covenant recovered the marginal benefit of the vaccine is smaller than it once was let me just unpack that if
19:40:00 you’ve had Covenant coverage you have quite good immunity getting the vaccine there’s no direct evidence in terms of a
19:46:00 trial for this but it it looks like it might reduce your risk of dying from covet a little bit even if you’re older
19:52:00 if you’ve recover from covid you have excellent immunity already as you say Alan I think the serious adverse event
19:59:00 rate is actually you know it’s higher than most other vaccines in Wise right use you know there’s a lot of dispute in
20:04:00 the literature about this but in any case too high for for something where there’s a marginal benefits he’s small
20:10:00 Alan Miller and today’s news talk radio TNT
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21:17:00 foreign show on today’s news talk TNT radio okay
21:24:00 this is uh dirkponable again and at the TNT radio show with Cynthia Chung and we
21:30:00 are deep into gladio the story and you were mentioning that uh I’ve um you know
21:36:00 I I listened up when uh when you mentioned the uh the German and Japanese
21:42:00 records that was a major undertaking to publish that and I was I did a
21:48:00 documentary that was called uh ready uh it’s uh uh it is there is an English
21:54:00 version of it in German it’s what we call ready for service that is about the use of Nazis and fascists by the allied
22:02:00 Allied Forces and uh it’s really uh uh it it struck me how uh how immediately
22:10:00 for example the fascists the floticlia dechimamas from Prince Valerio Borges
22:17:00 who became the the leader of the Italian neo-fascists he was immediately he was a
22:24:00 kind of a superhero in terms of Special Operations because his unit was able to
22:30:00 uh to take out two battleships in a harbor with just something like 20
22:36:00 frogmen so kind of Navy SEALs you would call them today the Italians invented
22:41:00 that and the Italians were extremely effective with it so they were they were
22:46:00 kind of super forces and um here again now I have to make sure that I’m not going astray but it was very interesting
22:52:00 because uh the uh the flauticlia decimal Mass fascists they were real fascist and
22:58:00 they loved the Israelis and the other way around so there were people from from the fortically are going to uh to
23:06:00 deal with the special forces and consider the Israelis the best fascists in the world
23:11:00 Italy had never the the National Socialist uh way of dealing with Jews
23:18:00 for them that was ridiculous the whole idea of racism was not rooted in fascism
23:23:00 that is typically German Nazi style they ridiculed the the Germans for their uh
23:30:00 for their uh racist theory that was nothing for them but they admired the
23:35:00 Israelis because they were so nationalists and they were willing to fight and die for their country and were
23:41:00 tough guys so that became a love affair before between the Italian fascists and
23:47:00 the Israeli Special Forces being uh uh under training while Otto scottsini was
23:53:00 helping both and was doing some training for the Egyptian Special Forces it’s it
23:59:00 becomes as I said you you get crazy when you look into it and that was my point when I looked at it you were mentioning
24:05:00 Dali laganza who did the first academic research on that everything else had been done by journalists before and uh
24:12:00 it in a way his book was received well in Academia but then when Daniel use the
24:19:00 same I’d say unobstructed view to reality to the 911 case he was shunned
24:26:00 and then also as an effect of that his work on gladio is considered now bad
24:32:00 Academia Daniel ganza was becoming was to become a professor at the eth in
24:37:00 Zurich which is as high as you can get in Academia in Switzerland and he was a shooting star a young brilliant academic
24:45:00 who has a a way of explaining things that everybody can understand he was
24:51:00 really a marvelous a marvelous historian and that ended his career as a
24:56:00 mainstream historian but that is also I noticed on on another strand that I was working on was Wikipedia and Wikipedia
25:03:00 could see what they did to the gladio entry it was very interesting and very long and that it was cleaned it was
25:09:00 purged so not only it became kind of the official narrative and if you wanted to
25:15:00 look what really happened then you had to go into these strange stories which
25:21:00 never really surfaced and then on another occasion when I researched the
25:27:00 work of uh of gladio in in Sweden I mean they were all over the neutral countries
25:33:00 the so-called neutral countries that were Sweden it was Austria it was
25:39:00 Switzerland it was Finland where they were very strong especially in Sweden
25:44:00 and I talked to a state Secretary uh
25:49:00 retired was a Social Democrat and he was in NATO the German connection person to
25:55:00 gladio and he told us that there had been two conferences regularly one for
26:01:00 the gladio network in NATO countries which was not terribly interesting he said but much more interesting was the
26:09:00 conference which included the so-called neutral States and then you could see that gladio was
26:15:00 becoming a kind of prolongation of the uh of the uh of the possibilities of
26:22:00 NATO into neutral countries I mean Sweden was since 1960 there was no military planning that didn’t involve
26:28:00 NATO and you were talking about Ukraine before you stopped and said uh how Victoria Newland was using again these
26:36:00 old Nazi networks and that is striking striking for me too that you could see
26:41:00 that obviously working together with Nazis it could be the end of your career or it could be the beginning of
26:48:00 something very different because the the western side work with real Nazis I mean
26:53:00 they are not only neo-nazis if you look into their writings there they do they have everything that defines the Nazi
27:00:00 including the racist theories the the dismay for any kind of of uh vaulting
27:06:00 for elections for uh having a hand risen uh take the majority voters something
27:13:00 like that so that suddenly became and that was that year it becomes very very
27:19:00 strange again who was financing the other brigades at a lot of these right-wing things uh he’s
27:26:00 a Jew uh so why do they work with Nazis yeah and then you have the Germans he’s
27:32:00 the one behind he’s the zielinski backer as well um I I wanted to just also uh just write
27:39:00 it go ahead yeah I was bragging along but I think it is because it’s so complex you you yourself are are an
27:47:00 authority on this subject as well but I just wanted to say because before the break I had forgotten why I had brought
27:52:00 up the the classification records and it was to bring up that um the CIA you know stepan Bandera is a
28:00:00 big name Nicola Levitt is a you know just as uh big in terms of the uh being
28:06:00 responsible for the Ukrainian um you know pretty much Nazis there’s
28:12:00 some people try to claimed that they were not Nazis but they they even though there was some fighting with the German
28:17:00 Nazis they were ultimately seeking to work with the Nazis and they did uh work with the Nazis and then eventually
28:24:00 mikola lebed was given Safe Haven by the CIA directly under Alan Dulles
28:30:00 and the CIA started uh operation aerodynamic which was to use a labid
28:39:00 um to continue to funnel this kind of extremism and radicalism within the
28:45:00 media within Academia within uh the journals and so forth within Ukraine
28:50:00 while it was supposedly under the Soviet Union this was still happening and it
28:57:00 was to continue this radicalization because they always viewed Ukraine as a Cold War weapon to be used they don’t
29:04:00 care about the Ukrainian people there was just they saw an opportunity there was also a revisionism of Ukrainian
29:12:00 history to to promote this idea of you know this is why you see the Trident
29:17:00 symbol that’s often mixed with like uh Nazi symbolism within their their
29:23:00 paramilitary groupings and and such is because they think that there their golden age of the Kevin Rose
29:30:00 period was them being the true ethnic representatives of thatch and that you
29:36:00 know the Russian people the Belarusian people are not uh the true uh ethnic uh
29:43:00 holders of this they’re they’re like contaminants and uh the only way that Ukraine can reach greatness again which
29:49:00 is very similar to the the German interpretation as well was that you had to have uh ethnic cleansing of your
29:56:00 country to have that greatness of your of your country come back but as we see you brought up the point of kolamoisky
30:03:00 who has a very uh High you know standing within Israeli institutions who also is
30:10:00 a heavy organizer into not just the backing of zelenski and azal funding but
30:16:00 he was also tied into the Malaysian Airline um that was shot down that was apparent
30:22:00 that is apparently an airline that he owns um and so we increasingly see that a lot
30:28:00 of the the dangerous things you also actually see this um interestingly
30:34:00 enough in any kind of like terrorist activity Matt um has done a very good
30:39:00 overview of how within Canada and the United States if you were to look at all of the so-called terrorist activity that
30:46:00 was thwarted by the FBI or the CIA you you can see that they got to a certain
30:53:00 level of threat because of direct intervention by the FBI and the CIA to
31:01:00 make the thing possible um so increasingly when you look at all
31:06:00 of the so-called threats that Democratic you know free Society is constantly
31:12:00 being threatened by you see that they are actually orchestrations hardly
31:18:00 anything is organic even like the serial killers like uh Charles Manson you see
31:24:00 is tied into MK Ultra projects so many are the Unabomber it was also another MK
31:30:00 Ultra subject it’s um it’s not coincidental but actually most of the
31:36:00 terrible things that are just on such a level of monstrosity that it it starts to make us Wonder like what is human
31:43:00 nature how can these things happen why are there such crazy ideologies they’ve been manufactured by the same sources or
31:51:00 when you were bringing up as well the the mafia situation in Italy which there it was an organic thing that I mean
31:59:00 organic in the sense that it wasn’t the Americans that made the Italian mafia but at a certain point they they had
32:06:00 um uh Incorporated the Italian mafia into the gladio arm and the OAS II of
32:14:00 the the the Renegade French intelligence military branch too that tried to overthrow de galle they also became
32:22:00 um uh Incorporated within the gladio arm and they were involved in high level level assassination networks including
32:29:00 involved in Kennedy’s assassination uh so you you look at this kind of of stuff
32:36:00 that’s happening it’s it’s all tied into the same structure it looks uh at first
32:42:00 because we’re giving these very superficial simplistic definitions of what is of what is a fascist
32:49:00 um you know what is a what is the defense that the the Americans have of
32:54:00 like you can kind of do evil onto other countries because it’s it’s in defense of freedom is actually when you look at
33:01:00 some of these kind of fascist ideologies of like you know how how to justify what
33:06:00 you’re doing it it it increasingly is not that different as an ideology if you
33:12:00 if you lose yourself in in justifying these kinds of um violent methods which
33:19:00 we’re seeing today like since 9 11 there’s been an increase in um
33:24:00 removing civil liberties and that this is a justification because we just have too many bad people out there we just
33:31:00 have too many crazy people we’re at a point now where we’re not even allowing freedom of speech which was supposed to
33:37:00 be one of the the fundamental things you have in a free Society we can’t even have freedom of speech because you just
33:42:00 have too many crazy people um that we we can’t have these people spreading their craziness everywhere and
33:50:00 this is now the idea that increasingly civil liberties is Justified to be
33:55:00 removed well we are increasingly moving towards a totalitarian system that was
34:01:00 the whole reason why we were allowing all these terrible things supposedly to happen like McCarthyism which was in
34:08:00 defense of Freedom um so it’s it’s like a big ruse it’s a it’s it’s a very long-winded way of
34:16:00 returning back to what is the same uh thing that was trying to be implemented during World War II and people have to
34:23:00 realize that yes it’s it is quite complex with all of the different you
34:28:00 know components and parts that are being used but it gets increasingly more
34:34:00 simple when when you look at what is the the bigger picture that all of these parts are being used for and it’s
34:40:00 towards the same goal which was the same goal during World War II and
34:46:00 um I have a chapter in my book um the empire in which the black Sun never set where I go over how the the level of
34:53:00 support for British uh fascism within um within Britain so when I said that
34:58:00 Churchill and Otto scorzani um were not actually uh opposites in
35:04:00 their ideological Viewpoint I was I was very serious about that and uh Oswald
35:09:00 Mosley um he was talking about uh basically the same sort of you have to explain nothing
35:15:00 I thought mostly is the British uh uh uh Nazi guy in in Great Britain trying to
35:22:00 have a Nazi party so it you might not be known to everybody just to yes yeah and
35:27:00 he was talking about uh you know gladio networks as well uh gladio is just the
35:32:00 name for you know Italy’s gladio and it just ended up being used for everything but he he was talking about this kind of
35:39:00 setup you you you find out too that clergy with the idea this might be controversial for some people to hear
35:45:00 but the idea of a European Union right this was first
35:50:00 um uh proposed by clergy in 1923 a pan-european movement and it always had
35:57:00 clergy made no um he did not shy away from him being
36:02:00 pro-fascist in his uh several autobiographical Works he said that the
36:07:00 tragedy of World War II um was that um Mussolini was uh was was thrown into
36:16:00 the arms of Hitler and if we had been smart we would have worked with Mussolini and he didn’t see a problem
36:23:00 with that idea um for Mussolini the same thing as um
36:30:00 um I forgot the guy’s name who was a a big leader in France too in terms of the
36:35:00 fascist movement uh there so it was actually quite mainstream it only became
36:42:00 controversial as Hitler increasingly was the one to represent uh the fascist
36:48:00 brand um yeah um I think definitely I wanted to throw
36:55:00 in one thing which I I can add uh when I did my documentary on the use of Nazis
37:01:00 and Fashions I had an interview with Christopher Simpson who had written uh the first really as a journalist the
37:09:00 first work on this whole topic of the use of uh Nazis fascists and scientists
37:15:00 so the influx of Nazis and fascists into the American system which is blowback
37:21:00 his book and he was part of this uh of the network or how would you say of the
37:28:00 commission who was supposed to find out which of the files about the German and
37:36:00 Japanese war criminal criminals that we used for intelligence purposes which
37:41:00 files would be published and I have to resort that the the guy who
37:48:00 was was heading the German FBI which is the bka as it’s called was
37:54:00 Otto decop who made his career as an alleged fighter against that Nazism that
38:00:00 he fled in World War II to Switzerland to work with the Americans what was true is that he worked with the Americans but
38:07:00 he was sent there by the rice Optum so the SS intelligence service and he used his cover Story the cover story that he
38:15:00 told to other people he used and after second world war in Germany to make a
38:21:00 career there he was an SS officer and one of the his buddies from from iranianborg from the SS unit were all
38:28:00 over the pka about you could say two-thirds to three-quarters of the high of the highest people were really SS
38:35:00 ranks who did had done terrible things in World War II and now it comes he was
38:41:00 not only a right-wing guy and a West German very good uh policeman from the
38:47:00 bka and what he would call an officer I think in English he was researching the
38:53:00 case of uh of decop and was presenting the facts and they fired him at BK but
39:00:00 then it became after the networks really the people that were part of that from decop were
39:06:00 getting into a retirement age the situation shifted and now there was this
39:11:00 Committee in Germany that on behalf of the bka was looking into their own past
39:16:00 into their own Nazi past and they were going to these files and I wanted to interview these people
39:23:00 um about what they found at the files and then they said yeah but there’s nothing interesting there from from
39:28:00 decop and he was in connection uh dikov was a a buddy a friend a close friend of
39:34:00 Francois new which was the leader of the uh of the French
39:40:00 in Switzerland of the french-speaking Nazis in Switzerland he had the rights to the to the Memoirs of gobbles
39:47:00 so these the guy that had was that was the chief of Interpol and of the German FBI was meeting with the guy who was
39:54:00 financing uh terrorist acts in in Africa and they were they even had a a an
40:00:00 apartment together as young men so they were very very close buddies so I asked
40:06:00 I asked them about that the the committee and they said oh there’s nothing in the files uh it’s all and I
40:12:00 said what is in the files and they said it’s all talk it’s the the nonsense talk of intelligence services and I was a
40:19:00 little astonished it could it be that you underestimate the intelligence services and that was not and then I
40:24:00 went to the United States and I asked Christopher Simpson the question because I had looked at the files for example of
40:30:00 decop but also he was a CLA asset for all his life until his death then yeah
40:35:00 he’s working he was working for the Swiss intelligence in World War II for the German intelligence and World War II
40:41:00 and for the Ellen Dallas directly in World War II he was a triple agent and then he became an agent for CIA while he
40:49:00 was the German head of the FBI so I asked Simpson what happened to the files
40:54:00 because it’s really if you read it they’re not terribly interesting this can’t be the full story and then Simpson
41:00:00 said very good question and I said why and he said yeah because it was what
41:05:00 they did is they were sanitizing the files and all the information that they gained about the actions of foreign
41:12:00 governments through legal or illegal use of intelligence was deleted from the
41:17:00 files so the German commission was working on uh on a map on the on the
41:23:00 their basic uh their basic influx for as sauces was a purge trial they didn’t
41:30:00 notice there was perched and came to the conclusion nothing interesting was in there and that made my hate my head
41:37:00 explode because I thought this is uh the way our historians work on these cases uh it’s it’s hard to it how it’s hard to
41:45:00 not write a satire about it it here it is so weird what what happened there and then you see Germany especially it’s
41:53:00 very deeply it has it has been yeah I mean the whole thing uh the whole German
41:58:00 intelligence was made up from geyland who was the head of foreign foreign armies uh he was using Russians to fight
42:05:00 Russians and after World War II because of the filthy things he’s done it was a clear candidate for the Gallows but he
42:12:00 approached the Americans said look you can kill me my words now or you use me and it would be much more interesting
42:18:00 because the Soviets are your next enemies and you could use them and they used him but they didn’t really trust
42:24:00 him they used him to get an influx into Germany after World War II and Galen
42:29:00 that is another thing that is in the book that you just mentioned uh um the uh from from the Salah editor I
42:37:00 forgot his name uh it’s one of them yeah with David Talbot he was describing the
42:43:00 Galen offered offered to do a coup in Germany in case
42:48:00 the social Democrats would get to the government he was he was he was uh going
42:54:00 towards his true Masters the CIA and said look if the German population votes the wrong way like in Italy also in
43:01:00 Germany if they would run right vote the wrong way and they would vote for the social Democrats at the free Democrats
43:08:00 who were going for reunification that was not a conservative issue at that time but the Social Democratic left-wing
43:14:00 issue rather and is that what happened for a German reunification before being a true member of NATO then he would
43:21:00 organize the coup he was promising that to his CIA masterminds who were a little bit astonished about him yeah but this
43:28:00 is you know it’s again it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s so weird it is so weird that
43:34:00 what you said then you think what I started to think about that that the the way of democracy that we are told at
43:42:00 universities or that we read and or that we get and decrement injuries and that what we are told is not what they really
43:49:00 believe in they leave belief in something different and that is dark and Sinister and has nothing to do with
43:55:00 Democratic Values with freedom with freedom of speech freedom of thought with the the anything that the uh I
44:01:00 would say the American Revolution stood for so um that was would be my take on it yeah okay and I think the tragedy and
44:09:00 I agree with you uh I think the tragedy here is um that this is why Daniella
44:14:00 Ganser got attacked because he he um he broke what was supposed to be the
44:21:00 unsaid rule in Academia that as a historian you’re allowed to talk about although certain kinds of dark secrets
44:29:00 in our history but you’re not allowed to try to apply then what you’ve learned to
44:36:00 question well what is operating the present structures of today if those
44:43:00 things were never addressed fully or corrected you know like the the line of
44:48:00 gladio is that oh well it um it was dissolved and you know at the beginning andreati when he was first
44:55:00 coming out uh talking about this he said oh it was dissolved in the 70s and then it was realized that it was still
45:01:00 ongoing so now we’re told like oh yeah well it was dissolved after that then in
45:06:00 the in the 90s mid 90s at some point but the reality of the situation is that
45:11:00 nothing has changed so all of these terrible things that you know we’ve learned about in terms of
45:18:00 the kind of undemocratic things that have been going on during the Cold War these things have been ongoing so if
45:25:00 there has been this massive track record uh with the CIA gladio branch of NATO
45:33:00 um and you know British intelligence is involved in this uh Israeli intelligence German intelligence is is is part of
45:41:00 this uh um everything pretty much all of the intelligence centers have been taken over to service this
45:47:00 if they were already intervening in all of these elections in a very undemocratic way in in in in various
45:54:00 ways including using terrorism but they were also using hard and soft assassination techniques they were they
46:01:00 were using conspiracy back then to to try to say oh this person is a Soviet puppet a stooge because if they don’t
46:09:00 agree with the hard line against Soviets if you’re not for war with uh Russia then you must be a stooge of Russia
46:15:00 right um if these techniques have been they’ve been shown that they were
46:21:00 undemocratically intervening in election processes why would we think that it’s
46:27:00 not happening today and that’s the big question because especially in the United States this has been an ongoing
46:34:00 thing now for uh you know almost eight years where they’ve been you know
46:40:00 claiming that Russia has been intervening in their election process now they’re talking about China
46:45:00 intervening in their election process us they should really understand that it is
46:51:00 the the very apparatus that has been claiming to be defending the Western
46:56:00 people including the American people against uh Russian uh infiltration and
47:02:00 increasingly Now Chinese infiltration they are the ones who have a decades-long
47:08:00 um list of of intervening in election processes throughout the world and
47:14:00 assassinating its democratically elected leaders so people have to really
47:20:00 confront this ugly reality and not just talk about it as this you know a historical thing but that this is still
47:27:00 something that needs to be addressed otherwise we are going to continue into
47:33:00 a Direction Where We will have less rights we will have less civil liberties
47:39:00 that we were supposed to be defending this whole time we’ve we’ve lost our way you know the the west and claiming to be
47:47:00 supporting these values as like the most important values yeah let’s get to the ads one more and
47:54:00 then get back to this very important topic give me a minute with TNT radio
47:59:00 Steve Mossberg this past Wednesday the Florida Board of Education did what governor Ron DeSantis wanted them to do
48:05:00 they expanded the existing restrictions on The Grooming of children in Florida schools the law in effect which is
48:10:00 constantly referred to by the Looney leftist media as the don’t say gay bill which is outrageously misleading on
48:16:00 purpose of course currently bans lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity from kindergarten through grade
48:22:00 three the new Provisions would expand that to include grades 4 through 12 for the most part and the left can’t take it
48:28:00 listen to actress Patti LuPone on The View reacting on Wednesday and I’ve said
48:35:00 this before and I’m going to get in trouble but I have said this before and it’s been in print I don’t know what the difference between our Christian right
48:40:00 and the Taliban is I have no idea what the difference is you’re not the only person who’s said that I don’t I just
48:48:00 don’t know what the difference is what’s happening in this country right now in the name of religion is so dangerous
48:54:00 and it’s not this country it’s not America well Whoopi then they are as sick and twisted as your guests most
49:00:00 Americans can tell you that among other travesties the Taliban has barred women and girls from secondary schools and
49:06:00 universities Patti LuPone is either a plain idiot or a very useful one thanks
49:11:00 for giving me a minute I’m Steve mallsberg for TNT radio
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50:15:00 Milwaukee [Music] you’re listening to Dirk Pullman on
50:20:00 today’s news talk NT radio so this is Doug Pullman again with the dark Pullman show and Cynthia
50:26:00 Chung and we were discussing this really you came to very similar conclusions that I came that we uh that we have to
50:33:00 understand that if we want to have something like what we learned universities or read in the school books
50:39:00 or is the set of rules that allegedly is uh uh is important for us then we see
50:46:00 that we really will have to fight for it it is not what the reality of power
50:52:00 structure is we have to uh you know like just like we do now by researching that
50:58:00 and get together and that would include people from Russia and China to understand what’s going on there we have
51:03:00 to get on a new level of understanding of the what is behind the curtain how the real mechanisms are are done which
51:11:00 is not what you hear not in normal mainstream media you could I call the the assassination of of Kennedy not
51:18:00 being solved the original sin and then you have 911 and now we haven’t Germany not stream 2 was a channel the same way
51:24:00 look at the other way so this is not the way to go forward if we want to have
51:29:00 something which really a lot of people in the world strive for that that’s uh that is a a society there where we all
51:36:00 can prosper in and collaborate and work together then we will have to get back
51:42:00 to to get the control of the of the states that we live in from these people to ourselves and it won’t be a very easy
51:49:00 and it won’t be pretty probably and to me it was um maybe a strange connection
51:55:00 but um the the GLA the uh covet case was you know like living in a in a surrounding
52:01:00 which includes bacteria and viruses means that you you live in there and they are capable to deal with it and
52:07:00 that’s they were part of human evolution and then they depicted that as being something that has to be fought we have
52:13:00 to fight what we have to declare war on viruses Dirk they even claimed that the the the
52:20:00 typical flu who was eradicated and we only had covid as like the crazy you
52:27:00 know level of uh part for me it became part of this weird scheme where you’re not looking into what reality is and
52:34:00 that is the same for the for the states that that we need this we need the
52:39:00 possibility to speak out against governments and the good government would be wise enough to accept that
52:44:00 because that’s the method of how we clean up our messes and that’s all gone we have to get back to that if we if it
52:51:00 if it is supposed to work for my children or my grandchildren it’s for me it’s uh for me it’s kind of maybe too
52:57:00 late for that but I’m I’m in a I think it’s uh it’s it’s not what it was supposed to be the first thing for
53:03:00 people is to understand and they will not be helped by the people who brought us into this mess
53:09:00 yeah I think that it’s it’s gotten to a point where uh journalism it’s it’s
53:14:00 pretty difficult to do any kind of real journalism now and um one thing that
53:20:00 people can kind of think about as a as a way you know because it’s difficult maybe for the average person to think
53:26:00 how do I get involved in such a a massive situation and it’s really to
53:33:00 just not go along with a narrative without really looking
53:38:00 into well why do I think this way or why do why are they encouraging uh me to to
53:44:00 think this way um maybe knowing some of the the inconsistencies that uh someone is aware
53:51:00 of historically um it’s I think they just play on people’s uh the fact that we have
53:58:00 unfortunately been too divided by a huge chunk of the world the Western people
54:04:00 don’t understand very much about I would argue the majority of the world’s
54:10:00 population and that’s a big problem you know we don’t know very much about how
54:16:00 people live in Asia or in Africa or even in South America to a large degree and
54:22:00 we don’t know how what what are these people going through what are their concerns how are they viewing uh the
54:28:00 actions of of the West and this cold war thing part of uh what I believe was
54:34:00 organized for this was that there was actually a natural partnership that was forming
54:40:00 um you had within the United States the process of uh you know with the
54:47:00 Centennial Exhibition with Henry C Carey where you know the United States had become an industrial leader and so you
54:53:00 started to see Henry seek Kerry networks within Russia within Japan within China
54:58:00 within Germany with the zolvaheim with uh Friedrich list that uh were
55:04:00 instrumental at developing National sovereignty you know Germany as well at
55:09:00 the time uh was not a sovereign country either and was was
55:14:00 Cynthia I had to cut you off at this point because we ran out of time I think we to make sure that it’s not it doesn’t
55:21:00 look like a censorship we will continue with this on another day and it was a it was a great pleasure for me to to talk
55:28:00 with you so goodbye to everybody and we do that again all right thank you sure.
Fonte The Ugly Truth of Operation Gladio: Cynthia Chung on the Dirk Pohlman Show